Vietnam and the world

 In Vietnam, people are taught this map.

The people are taught that the tan colored part labeled Vietnam belongs to - you guess it - Vietnam; and the parts not tan colored are not Vietnamese land territory.

You see that arrow pointing to that circle , that’s Southern China. Now, as you can see, it is not tan colored, it is red.

Vietnamese people see this, and use their logic.

“Since parts of the map that is tan colored and is labeled ‘Vietnam’ is part of my country, and Southern China is red, not tan, then that must mean Southern China isn’t part of Vietnam.”

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This question may be a little bit naive.

First, having lived in Vietnam for several years, I would not describe the people here as “hard working.” Vietnam is indeed part of the Sinosphere, like South Korea and Japan, which are famous (or infamous?) for their fanatical work ethic. But the similarities with these societies are mainly in the realm of “high culture” (i.e. Confucian philosophy and values, artistic influence from China, etc). Otherwise, they are quite different. In terms of lifestyle, I would say Vietnam is actually closer to Southeast Asian countries like Thailand. People prefer a slow pace of life and want to spend a lot of time with family. I wouldn’t describe the Vietnamese as lazy, but most people are “working to live.” They don’t usually “live for work.”

Second, a culture of hard work does not equate to a wealthy economy, and vice versa. North Koreans probably work pretty hard, yet their economy remains backward and dirt poor. France and Italy are not exactly known for a super strong work ethic. Yet they are still first world nations with a high standard of living.

Why is Vietnam still poor? I can list ten reasons below off the top of my head.

1. Vietnam’s feudal monarchy followed the delusional Chinese example of resisting all Western contact and influence in the 19th century. This stubborn and naive position caused the country to fall farther behind the most advanced countries socially, economically and technologically. While late modernizers (Japan, Russia, and to some extent Thailand) were adopting many Western practices in order to preserve their independence, China and Vietnam became easy prey for aggressive imperialist powers.
2. Colonizers were bad in general, but not equally bad. For example, the British and Japanese weren’t always benign rulers, but they established a decent foundation for future modernization in Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan by developing public institutions and infrastructure. France’s colonization of Vietnam from around 1870–1945 focused almost exclusively on raw material extraction, and made fewer positive contributions to Vietnam’s development.
3. Three decades of war (1945–75) resulted massive lost opportunity to resume economic development in early post colonial era (to say nothing of the terrible physical destruction of the country and loss of life).
4. The victorious communist regime followed a Soviet style economic model based on central planning after the war, which resulted in famine, human exodus (“boat people”) and overall economic calamity from 1975–1986.
5. Until 1989, much of the government’s resources and attention were diverted to the occupation of Cambodia and a brief and destructive border war with China. Due to these conflicts, Vietnam was politically and economically isoated from ASEAN countries and China, as well as the US, which kept a trade embargo in place. A process of reform began in 1986, but real openness to trade and investment with neighboring countries and America did not begin until around 1994. By then, Vietnam’s economy was an impoverished shambles. Meanwhile many of her neighbors already had some solid industrial infrastructure in place and had joined global manufacturing supply chains.
6. Vietnam has enjoyed good overall growth in the reform era (1994-the present). This i helped Vietnam move out of the ranks of the world’s poorest countries (mostly in Africa) and brought it closer to Indonesia or the Philippines’ level ( still poor, but not so bad). However, macroeconomic policy has been mismanaged at several junctures. This has resulted in periods of high inflation, high public debt, trade deficits, currency volatility and asset bubbles.
7. The government’s slow progress in reforming state owned enterprises (a legacy from the Soviet model) has undermined efforts to improve productivity. China, for example, has been much better in terms of streamlining SOE operations, selling off unprofitable entities, and injecting fresh blood into remaining ones by major share offerings for outside investors. In Vietnam, a lot of the biggest SOEs remain wholly government owned, while others remain involved in non-core and non-strategic sectors like beer brewing, hotels, food processing and even selling ice cream to tourists!
8. The government’s approach to infrastructure development has been chaotic, and unsystematic. Instead focusing on a few major projects that would deliver the most overall “bang for the buck”, Vietnam’s resources have been scattered in a large number of small developments without much economic value (small airports, seaports, roads and refineries located far from economic activity). This is usually blamed on weak power of public domain, limited central control over provincial governments, and a “socialist mindset” that does not want to see Saigon and the surrounding provinces develop too much faster than the rest of the country.
9. Vietnam’s financial markets remain very small and primitive. With the stock market still in the “frontier” category (along with countries like Bulgaria, Bangladesh and Nigeria). A secondary market for bonds does not really even exist. As a result, much of the countries potential investment flows into low yearning, non-productive and speculative assets (bank deposits, foreign currency, gold and real estate).
10. Miscellaneous and related problems such as widespread nepotism and corruption, bad system of higher education, “brain drain”, etc.

Because Vietnam had possibly the worst possible set of circumstances post WWII of any country in the entire world. First, the French did not immediately give it independence the way the British did with India. Instead Vietnam had to fight a war against France, which later turned into a war against the US. In the process millions died and millions more left, often the educated and businessman Vietnamese who were important to the economy. A lot of the country was devastated. Then after Vietnam finally gained its independence completely in the 1970’s (way later than countries like Indonesia, India, Philippines, etc), it had to fight wars with Cambodia and China.

All along western sanctions were still imposed until the 90’s. Diplomatic relations with the US were not re-established until the 90’s. The economy in the 70’s and 80’s did not do well because it was closed off from the rest of the world and heavily socialist and dependent on the USSR. Finally around 1986 the government at least reformed the economy to be more free market. Since that time Vietnam has grown fast. It is now a stable country with one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

I would say that Vietnam is an accident of history. It should be a richer nation at least at the level of Taiwan, Malaysia, South Korea or mainland China. Vietnamese have very high IQs, some studies put them at the same level as Germany even though Germany is a much richer country. Vietnamese also are very entrepreneurial and work hard along with having good family values. All these things are keys to having a successful country and society.

If you came to Vietnam over ten years ago it was still not common to see cars, skyscrapers, nice highways etc. Now the country is booming and it’s obvious that things are improving. I think if it can grow for another 10–20 years it will become a upper middle income level country.

Which makes it hilarious.

“Why are most Filipino people still poor even though the Philippines’ economy is already open for business for foreigners and to the world since at least the 1940s?”

Many Filipinos love to denigrate Vietnam to sooth their hurt ego and make themselves feel superior, don’t they? Especially after their country, boasted as “once the second richest country in Asia” has already been overtaken by a war-torn and heavily embargoed country just 3 decades ago.

The Philippines has been overtaken by once-wartorn Vietnam since 2018, in terms of GDP per capita.

If we measure by PPP per capita, the overtake happened even earlier, in 2012.

Of the 6 major ASEAN economies (Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia), the Philippines is now the poorest, as measured by both GDP per capita and PPP per capita. And of course, the Philippines is now a poorer country than Vietnam. This is despite the fact that the Philippines had a head start of several decades over Vietnam, was not utterly ravaged by several destructive wars during the past century, and had no major sanctions slapped against it by world powers during said period.

Instead of thinking of ways to drag Vietnam down to your level, try something else to uplift your country. Because Vietnam is not going down anytime soon. Honestly speaking, I just hope most Filipinos to be like this questioner. A country full of such citizens will not make for a fast developing one. I sure do not want my country Vietnam to have a better able economic competitor next door either. Seeing them wallow idly in their happy-go-lucky make-believe and wistful thinking is probably the most beautiful sight to behold for this neighboring country. Cheers!

A Viet Cong guerrilla stands guard in the Mekong Delta.

Her name is Lam Thi Dep (Dep means beautiful in Vietnamese), the picture was taken in 1972 at Soc Trang Province by Vietnamese journalist Minh Truong.

“You could find women like her almost everywhere during the war”, said the photographer. “She was only 24 years old but had been widowed twice. Both her husbands were soldiers”.

She’s wielding an M-16, the standard-issue American soldier’s rifle. Unbelievable how life turned out for her.. show details in comment

As a Chinese I would try to answer this question as unbiased as I can. But instead of arguing who actually won the war, I would rather talk about the implications and background of this war on China’s side. Honestly this is not a glory war for China, China did invade Vietnam despite any reasons.

We all understand that the war is the extend of politics, war servers the purpose of politics. So what the purpose of this war for China is? To invade Vietnam? To punish Vietnam like what Chinese government has propagated? No, it was ironic that from the very beginning China’s primary purpose had never been Vietnam. In my opinion China had at least 3 strategic purposes. 1. jeopardize global reputation of Soviet Union. 2. strive for supports and aids from U.S and western world. 3. And the ultimate goal was to strength Den Xiaoping’s authority in China and hence starts his plan of reforming China.

Background information: In 1979 Soviet Union is a hostile country of China; China had established full diplomatic relationship with U.S in 1/1/1979; Vietnam was a firm ally of Soviet and the relationship with China was tense; Vietnam invaded Cambodia; China has just recovered from the chaos caused by the ten years cultural revolution, Den Xiaoping took the power of CCP and he had planned to conduct a huge political and economical reform in China. And his plans desired a favourable international and domestic environment.

I am not going to talk about how close China and Vietnam were before, and I am not going to give the precise number of how much resources China had contribute to Vietnam to fight U.S. Circumstances had changed, Vietnam was no longer a friend but U.S had became one, the rest were irrelevant.

China needed an opportunity and Vietnam had just provided one. By invading Cambodia, Vietnam had gave China an excuse for the war. （Khmer Rouge is another topic）By sending the majority of Vietnamese elite troops to Cambodia and ignored the existence of China, Vietnam had just gave China a chance for the war, and Den Xiaoping seized the chance. In 17/02/1979, 200,000 Chinese troops had entered Vietnam territory along the 1,000 kilometers China-Vietnam border, the war had begun.

But I am not going to discus the details of the battles. In 05/03/1979, after taking the major cities in north Vietnam, even the route to the capital of Vietnam is flat as a pancake, Den Xiaoping had ordered his troops to retreat back to China. The war had ended, and both sides claimed a victory. Because he clearly understood the costs of continuing the war for China would be huge and exceed the benefits. Vietnam army were tough and experienced. The casualties of Chinese army in the first 2 days of the war had reached 4,000 and shocked the central military community. This war had also revealed many serious problems of Chinese army. Soldiers were unprofessional and poorly equipt. Military tactics were obsolete and command system was a mess, even friendly fire had happened. And the military ranking system were abandoned during the cultural revolution, soldiers did not receive further orders when their direct commanders were killed in the battlefield. So this war and the later Gulf war alert China to transform and modernize its army. But on the other hand, no matter how bravely the Vietnamese army fought, China was still a giant to Vietnam. China could easily allocate a small portion of its national resources to drag Vietnam into a endless warfare. The small military conflicts and battles on the borders did not stop with the war until the 1990s. In more than 10 years time, troops from different Chinese military districts took turns entered into the conflict zone for training and weapon testing purpose, and of course to create pressure to Vietnam. An ordinary Chinese life was hardly affected by those conflicts, Chinese were busy doing business at that time. However it was a totally different story for Vietnam, in order to counter China and prepare for Chinese next invasion which Den Xiaoping had warned. Vietnam had to maintain a large number of troops which was a huge burden for Vietnamese economy. Vietnam therefor did not have sufficient resources to develop infrastructures and improve economy. The subsequences of the war harmed Vietnam a lot more than the war itself.

Because Soviet did nothing to stop China invading Vietnam, after the war some of its allies like Egypt and Afghanistan embrace the western side which had led to the invasion of Afghanistan by Soviet in 1980s. And Afghanistan had dragged Soviet into a war swamp. Soviet also provided a large amount of financial aid to Vietnam each year to help Vietnam maintain its army. All of these issues contributed the final collapse of the Soviet union in 1990s.

After the war China had proven it was helpful to against the Soviet. U.S, Japan and Europe started to sell weapons to China, invest in China, transfer technology to China and trade with China. The international environment was perfect for China in the 80s. And Den Xiaoping had established dominated authority in CCP, he was ready to implement his mega plans.

I have to admit that Den Xiaoping is really a master in strategy, China had almost accomplished all major goals through the war, but at the expense of the lives of Chinese and Vietnamese people.

If you are a foreigner you will find it so strange, but we don't, it's a part of our culture, we don't use Chinese characters in document anymore, but we don't say that we don't use it to decorate

This is our ancestral culture, we still pass down ancient architecture and writing to this day

After a 100-years war, most of the ancient structures were destroyed by the war. All ancient citadels in Vietnam were destroyed by bombs and bullets, now only remnants of the war remain, with a few ancient Chinese characters still engraved on them.

Thang Long (Ha Noi) Gate: attacked by artillery. Currently, only the city gate remains, the city wall has collapsed.

Chinese characters in Vietnam are sometimes read from right to left, sometimes read from left to right, 😵😵 and I am illiterate. 😅😬. I just think it matches the ancient decoration quite well, but I don't understand what they wrote, 😂

Question: Why do some Vietnamese consider themselves as descendants of dragons or call themselves rising dragons? Why is Vietnam obsessed with dragons? 

Answer: Together with the development of science and technology, humans have been researched themselves, especially the origin of the human race. Most of the famous research indicated that the human race has been evolved from the human-ape. There are no such species called the Chinese Han apes, the Vietnamese Kinh apes, the Cambodian Khmer ape that has evolved into the modern human of the Chinese, the Vietnamese, and Cambodians. All of us are the human race and have brought the human genes, have evolved from the human-ape. However, in the Vietnamese folk belief system, they believe that they are the ‘children of the dragon and grandchildren of the fairy’ originated from the myth about Lac Long Quan and Au Co.

So, the question should be Why do the Vietnamese call themselves the ‘children of the dragon and grandchildren of the fairy.

Here is the article that you could read: Why a proverb calls the Vietnamese the ‘children of the dragon and grandchildren of the fairy’

[1]

In Vietnamese culture, as in many other East and southeast Asian societies, the dragon plays a very prominent role. It is arguably the most sacred of the four mythical creatures – the dragon, the phoenix, the unicorn, and the turtle – and its pre-eminence is closely related to the birth of the nation.

Legend has it that Lạc Long Quân, king of the dragons who lived in the water, married Âu Cơ, a fairy from the bird kingdom. She gave birth to 100 sons and her first-born son became King Hùng Vương of Lạc Việt, the first dynasty of Vietnam. The word “Long” in the name of the legendary Lạc Long Quân (Dragon Lord of the Lac) is a Hán-Việt word which also means dragon or rồng in modern Vietnamese. Hence there is a proverb saying that the Vietnamese are con rồng cháu tiên or “children of the dragon and grandchildren of the fairy”.

Gilded dragon on the reverse of an Imperial edict of Emperor Khải Đinh, 1924. British Library, Or.14665

Seeing the dragon

From the very birth of the country, the dragon has thus been closely associated with Vietnamese kings or rulers, but it is believed that in even earlier times the dragon was used as a symbol at the clan level to represent talent, nobility, and beauty.

There are proverbs that refer to the dragon in this context, such as chữ viết đẹp như rồng bay phượng múa, “handwriting is as beautiful as a flying dragon and a dancing phoenix”. However, the increasing use of the word “dragon” and objects with dragon patterns by feudal lords led to this creature becoming a symbol of the authority of the imperial clan. In China, it is believed that an emperor of the Han dynasty (BC 206-AD 220) was the first ruler to use the dragon to represent his authority.

Vietnamese tales and legends also reinforce a close association between this creature and the country’s rulers. For example, when Lý Công Uẩn took power from the Early Lê dynasty in AD 1009, he is said to have seen a golden dragon descending from the sky over Đại La citadel. He, therefore, renamed Đại La Thăng Long (“Rising Dragon”). Lý Công Uẩn became Emperor Lý Thái Tổ, the founder of the Lý dynasty (AD 1009-1225) and Thăng Long, which later became Hà Nội, was chosen as the capital.

It is believed that both the new emperor and the capital city were blessed by this mythical creature right from the very beginning. Lý Thái Tổ was not the only emperor who claimed to see a golden dragon during his reign for Emperor Lý Nhân Tông (AD 1066-1127) and Emperor Lê Thanh Tông (AD 1442-1497) were also said to have seen golden dragons several times during their reigns (Zeng Zen 2000: 46).

The Imperial dragon depicted on the yellow silk front and back covers of a manuscript of KimVăn Kiều, 19th c. British Library, Or.14844

Winding dragon

The dragon is regarded as immortal and even though its appearance can seem frightening, it does not represent evil. On the contrary, in Vietnam, the dragon was always regarded as a symbol of power and nobility and thus became the chief attribute of the person highest in nobility and greatest in power: the emperor or king (Buttinger 1983:20).

The Vietnamese imperial throne is called bệ rồng or “dragon throne”, while the throne hall in the palace where the emperor granted public audiences or worked, such as that in the former imperial capital city of Huế, was also decorated with dragons. Imperial attire and accessories were also related to the dragon; for example, the imperial gown was called a long bào and his hat was called a long quân. The dragon with five claws was reserved for imperial use, while one with four claws was for the use of royal dignitaries and high-ranking court officials. For commoners, their dragons could only have three claws.

From a geographical aspect, the shape of Vietnam, which resembles the letter S, also enhances the dragon myth. The Vietnamese consider the shape of their homeland to be similar to a winding dragon: the northern part is its tail, central Vietnam is its body with the Trường Sơn mountain range (the Annamite Range) as its back and spine, and the dragon’s head lies in the southern part, with its open mouth spraying water into the South China Sea. It should be noted that when the Mekong River reaches the South of Vietnam and branches into nine tributaries in the Mekong River Delta, it is called Sông Cửu Long or the “Nine Dragon River”.

Gilt dragon on the Imperial edict of Emperor Khải Đinh, 25 July 1917. British Library, Or.14631

Dragons also appear in many other aspects of Vietnamese life and culture. On auspicious occasions such as the Vietnamese New Year, a dragon dance will be organized. The Nguyễn court (AD 1802-1945) also declared the Dragon Boat Day, originating from Chinese traditions, as one of the “three great holidays” in Vietnam along with the lunar New Year (Tết Nguyên Đán) and the emperor’s birthday.

The boat race festival was celebrated on the fifth day of the fifth lunar month by peasants in South China and Vietnam, to ward off poisonous spirits (Woodside 1988: 36-37). Many Vietnamese proverbs and children’s plays relate to dragons, and many place names in Vietnam also contain the word “Long”, or “Dragon”.

Dragon Boat Race, Thiếu Nhi vẽ. Hà Nội: Văn hóa, 1977, [21]. British Library, SEA.1986.a.4004

In Hồ Chí Minh City (formerly Sài Gòn), there is a historic building called Nhà Rồng, or the Dragon House, located at the old port of Saigon. The house was built by the French in 1862-1863 in a French colonial style, but on the rooftop, there were two symmetrical ceramic dragons facing each other and looking at the moon, hence the name Nhà Rồng. It was from here that the young Hồ Chí Minh embarked on a ship to sail to France in June 1911, on his search to find methods to fight French colonialism and seek independence for his motherland. Symbolically, dragons seem to appear in some critical junctures in Vietnamese history.

In conclusion: I have no data to answer you whether or not Vietnam is obsessed with dragons. However, In the Vietnamese folk belief, they believe that they are the ‘children of the dragon and grandchildren of the fairy. I would say that they believe in that myth of Lac Long Quan and Au Co above and It is a matter of the folk belief or a kind of the Vietnamese religion or tradition rather than something relating to science. It is just similar to the case that the Singaporean call their country as the Lion City even though there is no proof to confirm the existence of the native Lion species in Singapore, Or the Chinese call their country as Centre of the Universe even though we have not yet discovered the whole universe. It is just a matter of Vietnamese belief, not relating to science or logic.

Temple for worshipping the Lac Long Quan and Au Co

Yes. Exactly! In just four years in power (from 1975-1979), the Khmer Rouge murdered 1.5-2 million Cambodians (nearly 25% of Cambodia's population). Among the Khmer Rouge murdered, there were 200,000-300,000 Cambodians of Chinese origin, 90,000-500,000 Champa people (mainly Muslim), 20,000 Cambodians of Vietnamese origin, 20,000 people went to security prison 21 awaiting execution

The above data says many things, the Khmer Rouge killed 10 times more people of Chinese origin than people of Vietnamese origin, but the Chinese communist government still tried its best to support them.

In just 4 years in power, the Khmer Rouge murdered nearly 25% of the Cambodian population. So perhaps within 15-20 years of being in power, the Khmer Rouge will surely kill all Cambodians. At that time, the Khmer Rouge will certainly collapse on its own because there will be no more Cambodians.

Thanks to the Khmer Rouge, Cambodia became an illiterate country and had the highest rate of mental illness in Southeast Asia. They still dream about the self-proclaimed empire that died thousands of years ago instead of staying awake to work and take care of their starving lives.

If you have stupid ideas like Red Khmer Rouge, restore the Khmer Rouge and keep it in Cambodia, never have the illusion of inciting Vietnam and Vietnam will never invade you.